Some interesting and diverse views on how to approach gigs (apart from begging)
Q: If you’re in a band, or you’re a solo act, and you’re pitching to a venue, what’s the best way to approach them? Is it rude to ask what the door deal is or do you just accept what is offered?
Buck Moore· Inventor/Consultant at Mobile Think Tank (1997–present)
In my musician experience, you have to know who you are talking with first, and then you can negotiate.
If a venue booker, owner, etc, is professional & polite, and you are, too, then you can ask them what their booking policy is (what guarantees, door vs bar, percentage of bar sales, etc) because they are all a little different.
Some people won’t budge and some will. They all have some sort of reputation that you can check on.
When I was booking, I would be receptive to an offer and let them know our booking policy, which could always be altered if I sensed it was going to be a good show. When a band/artist told me they could draw 200 people, I would assume 100 and ask them to book 2 opening acts just to make good bar sales. Then I would ask/suggest how they promote the show.
I needed people in the club to have the job. I would even tell them that in order to have a good turnout, they should have each member of each act get 7 to 10 people to the show on their own, which lessens the burden of filling a room.3 acts with average of 3.5 members each x 8.5 guests = 10.5, then 10.5 band members x 8.5 people each = 89.25. 89.25 people x 3 drinks each = 267.75 drinks. 267.5 x $6.00 = $1606.50 dollars for drink sales (after tax), plus maybe 20% of people buy food/snacks – 89.25 x .20 = 17.85 x $20.00 = $357.00. 357.00 + 1606.50 = $1963.50. So my club grossed $1963.50 that night. $1963.50 – $100.00 for sound, 3 bar staff x $14/hr = $294.00, 1 x security = $125.00. (100+294+125 = $519.00). $1963.5 – $519.00 = $1444.00 profit that evening.
Hopefully this was only a Wednesday, but if it were 5 nights out of 7, then $1444.00 x 5 nights = $7220.00 x 4 weeks = $28,880.00 that the bar makes every month on shows, not including lunches and dinners apart from shows. That is how I would calculate the numbers before I made any deals. That’s like 1.5 Million per year on shows, so a show booker has to be very careful about making deals, but they can be made.I would also do some asking around about how well they did at other venues, then I would tell them not to play 2 weeks before or after the show. After all of that, if they wanted 100% of the door plus 3% of bar sales after $2500.00, I would say ‘sure, let’s do the show’. I would then say, if they made less that $500.00 in bar sales (for example and it depends), they would have to pay the sound and lighting crew and most likely from the door. Then I would have an agreement and away we go. I don’t think it is rude to ask for a door deal if you come across as a business person who sees performance as a business first. That’s my two cents! Cheers!
This is how the music industry works – by Adam RoesnerHey. I’m Adam. Been producing pop music on a professional level for the last 8 years. It’s my full time gig. Mostly for independent artists, but I’ve had some contract label work come my way recently.
There are a lot of misunderstandings about how labels work and what they’re for. I thought I’d shed some light for you.
A lot of creatives are dying to be “signed” because it feels like the magic ticket to the dream. The stars will align, you’ll suddenly be blessed with everything you need, people will take you seriously, and your music will be astronomically better than it’s ever been before… Etc.
A career, money, living income, game, fortune, whatever. The idea of having something backing you and leaving you free to just create is probably the ticket to your dream in your mind.
I’m gonna tell you right now- getting signed, deflecting the responsibility for your career onto a theoretical label… Probably not the answer.
There are two things that play into this. First of all,what you *think* a label does and what they actually do are – p r o b a b l y – different things.
Secondly, from a strictly practical standpoint (and as a dude who works with both labels and independent clients, seen this firsthand) labels really aren’t all that necessary. There are about a thousand ways to build a career without one. Might write a post about that later.
So let’s tackle the first one. Labels aren’t what you think they are.
Traditionally they served as a recording, publication, and marketing house for artists who had brilliant ideas and were worth investing in. This is theoretically still the case. Back in the 80’s-early 2000’s, however, all those things were generally inaccessible to independent talent, and REQUIRED the label to fund and manage them.
That is NOT the case today.
You can create an outstanding record with a desktop computer, a midi controller, a DAW, and access to the internet. Don’t know how to mix/produce/master, etc? That’s fine, there are 8593821 independent professionals out there who can help you. If you want to learn yourself, there’s endless YouTube content, both paid and free.
Oh, and without them, you can still keep the rights to what you make.
Point is, the label no longer controls the entry point into the industry. They don’t even control the top end- Macklemore rose to fame totally independently. A ton of artists are deliberately taking that path now because there are tremendous benefits to staying independent, namely, having total control.
You can pick every member of your creative team. You can control the manifestation of your creative vision in every way. You can pick and choose who you receive critical mentorship from.
This, of course, demands an extreme degree of clarity and vision about yourself and what you want for your career- which is another subject entirely- but that clarity is really required anyway, label or not.
“But I can’t afford that!” Guess what, the label will give you money, (an advance) but you generally have to pay it back anyway. You know what else you can get without a label? A bank loan or line of credit.
Except you get to keep control and 100% of the profit.
So, in summary, you have total control of your career without the label, and there are obvious benefits to this.
***So why would anyone WANT to get signed?***
A lot of reasons, but most of them *aren’t* things that you need to worry about in the beginning or intermediate stages of your career.
Obviously the network they have access to is incredible. High level producers, engineers, etc. Really incredible people to work with.
However, you often don’t get to pick these people yourself- every artist I’ve produced as a part of my label gig hasn’t had any say in my involvement. I work at the behest of the label with the artist, but I wasn’t selected by the artist. This can cause communication issues if the production team and artist aren’t a good fit, resulting is subpar art. Probably not what you want.
Labels also will of course invest into and finance your ability to work with these people, release, and market your art.
However, again, most of these agreements rely on an advance, which you —still— have to pay back.
And you still don’t get to own all of your art.
Because of the financial investment on the end of the label, their people also have influence on what you put out. They will make creative decisions for you. I went through probably 22 sets of revisions on a track for one of the artists I produce because the label and the artist had a fundamental disagreement on the direction of the music.
Those circumstances can be rare, and they are, but they still happen.
(Side note, that’s why having clarity of vision is really important for you, regardless of if you’re signed or not)
I can say that if I were to try to build a career as an artist RIGHT NOW I’d probably lean into being independent. In my experience the benefits for committed, visionary, and expert creatives far outweigh the benefits of being signed.
But… This is a dynamic industry and nothing is one size fits all.
Ultimately you have to know what it is you want to get out of your career and choose to pursue that path. Nobody can tell you what that needs to look like.
Feel free to reach out if you have questions or want advice. Q1: What are the big 5 or 10 management agencies for musicians and what percentages are representative of the deals between them and musicians?A: Southbeat
Premier
10%
But one of them frequently double dips …
The rest are gone – I’m sure there are some new ones but I’m an old player and not as connected with new ones
Q2: If you aren’t represented by an agency, is it best to insist on a written contract between yourself and the venue? What marketing materials do you offer them eg. posters, radio, bios etc.
A: It’ll never happen – private functions you can get a deposit but pubs and clubs – no way
You must provide posters and electronic press kit often
This is the future –
In LA where some friends work you are given 100 tickets – you make up the difference to the venue for those you don’t sell
Q3: What sorts of deals are mid-sized (150 people in the audience) venues likely to prefer, door-deals or a set fee and what are the dollar venues likely to range between?
A: Varies
9/10 set fees
Set fees are based on experience and or crowd pull capacity – sometimes you can be a feature sometimes wallpaper
Q4: What length of performance do you find clubs want (eg. 2 x 45 minute sets) and is it better for a performer to offer 2 nights (Friday/Saturday) in a larger town like Orange, Wagga, Armidale, Coffs etc and how far ahead do they plan their bookings?
A: 3 to 4 x 45 minute sets
Q5: Do clubs do cash deals still?
A: Not since the 80s
Q6: In your experience, what percentage of clubs offer acceptable house sound (including the sound tech guy) and drum kits or is it safer to always lug your own?
A: 5%
Q7:. Is it still OK to sell merchandise at venues?
A: Absolutely ok – except bigger clubs when it would be prudent to ask the booker
Q8: To the best of your knowledge, do clubs/hotels pay performers out of their gaming machine revenue?
A: Probably yes sadly
Q9: What is the best way to approach accommodation if you’re working away from home eg. part of the venue deal, motels, caravan parks etc.
A: Part of the venue deal or dodgy 1 to 3 room arrangements at a local motel. However 3 rooms will remove all chance off a profit.
My band images in 90-93 were signed and toured non stop for $32 a week after expenses – that was shared between us
Management 10-20%
Booking 10%
Sound and lights $700
Petrol
Insurance
Strings and skins
So we invested in a vege steamer and bought rice and veges to feed us and shared a 1 BR room in each town we played
If we were lucky enough to get a support for Jimmy Barnes etc we got paid $50 if lucky
Q10: Are riders still common in the industry eg. free booze?
A: Not since the 80s – by early 90s it went from a case of beer to a six pack to none
You might get some free soft drinks – sometimes
Sometimes a meal but once your proved yourselves after a few years
Many large clubs now ask for a contract that no one in the band will consume any intoxicating substance legal or otherwise on the
day of performance until they are back in their own home after the show.
Q11: How are roadies fees calculated and is it best to take your own, suck it up and do it yourself, or ask the venue for someone to help in/out?
A: After 1995 I do it all myself
But on larger shows I might get to pay a mate to load and do sound $100-$300
Q12: Is it better to lug your own curtain backdrop and stage props?
A: Lighter the better. Backdrops can weigh a tonne and take up a whole seat
Q13: What is the best avenue for insurance for performers, including the ‘must cover’ options eg. instrument values?
A: You aren’t allowed to perform most venues now without proof of public liability insurance. Costs us about $700 per year
Duck for cover seems to be popular but I do it with a mob in Albury (doesn’t save me much – we probably pay more – But neither here nor there)
Sure you can play small inner city venues and private parties without it but clubs and pubs require the band to have it.
A mate of mine was a very good magician in the clubs – a punter slipped on one piece of apple core from his act – my mate lost his house .
True story – don’t perform without public liability
Ever
Instrument insurance – well XXXXX and myself have to insure our studio and gear separately from the house .
To be honest we’ve been able to afford it recently and over the years I’ve had all my things stolen 3 times – uninsured
If you have them in a house with alarms and caged doors and windows – like my house in Glebe – they will remove the roof to get in. It’s horrible
You’ll notice our address is never advertised
Q14: In your experience, should guitarists take a back-up instrument and leads on tour and onto the stage during the performance in the event of catastrophic failure?
A: Funny – I joke with old mates – it’s the first gig you do without a spare guitar that you need it lol
Murphy’s law It probably sounds doom and gloom. Well it’s not –
Other points:
• All of my bands that worked started by booking their own shows with one member delegated that task
• Once you’re hot and ready go through an agency.
• Once you’re sick and tired of the agency BS you go back to doing it all on your own.
• XXXXX is our booker – she spends up to 8 hours every week locking in dates , planning tours and accomm and costumes etc. While I roll cables and lug gear she works the room and publican . Gift of the gab. She used to work for Jacobsens agency booking Tommy Emmanuel through to Billy Joel, Pink Floyd and Michael Jackson.
• There are a few agencies with a handful of venues each – call the pub and they will tell you who to speak to.
• It’s a slog – my mate XXXXX has been full time muso – we are same age and grew up together – he even had his band on every week on the footy show for years. He’s now got a gofundme to raise money for his pancreatic cancer meds and help.
• Some of us were lucky enough to to quit alcohol and smoking
• Have a partner that shares our love of music – then every gig in one comes to us and we pay some contractors and accountants
• Get a different job for a few years to get into the housing market
• Have a trade or degree behind us
• Be humble enough to teach and look at the career holistically – most mates who were in big bands are broke now unless they were the songwriters
• Get with Bupa or whatever and struggle to keep it – because hey it’s our family we need to look after – they depend on us
• You must become a good songwriter
• You must be able to work with children (legally}
• You should use own your own PA system (never ever lend or hire it out). If asked say no / we use ours Wed to Sunday arvo – and have a spare
• Book your own gigs – start small – XXXXX and i do – solo, duo, trio, band
• You must be able to play at least 100 popular songs – with gusto even if they suck
• You need to be able to do your own sound nowadays much if the time
• You must lug yourself and take care of your ears, fingers and all body joints esp spine.
• Finally – an old joke – what do you call a guitarist without a girlfriend? … homeless
Funny XXXXX and I each were paying off our own houses when we met / I was working day job and 6 nights in music.
It allowed us to combine resources and build the studio. When we built the studio in 2006 we were the 4th studio in XXXXX. Now there are over 50 …
So, it ain’t over till it’s over but XXXXXX should want to become either the most well known player on the planet and have Lady Luck and the goddess of fortune on his side or he needs to be able to do anything related to music well or get a “real job “ as my dad said. Every Xmas my dad would tally how much income I had foregone by pursuing music. Until he saw me play to 10k people at Fisherman’s Wharf on the Gold Coast when I was 27. He apologised … but funny – he and mum drove to a new gig we did west of Newcastle a few years back but played to 7 people again.
Oh and you got to have a sense of humour
Also my mate Mark just lost his wife so he can’t play nights anymore as he’s got teens to look after .
Keep in mind that once the shine of our early 20s finishes and your school mates all move away – it becomes very real to make it sustainable
How many mates have lost shallow partners when the chips are down
Sad really